Transcript
[00:00:03.730] - Imogen
Hello and welcome to Dear Comms, the coffee break podcast where we tackle your biggest corporate comms challenges. I’m Imogen…
[00:00:12.670] - Amanda
…and I'm Amanda. We're here to give you practical, no-nonsense advice so you can focus on the things that will really drive influence, engagement, and impact.
[00:00:23.880] - Imogen
This episode, we're going to be tackling a question from Jasper. Jasper sent us a message via LinkedIn which said, I've been offered a new which I'm quite excited about, but the company could be seen as quite controversial. I'm not sure what to do. First of all, thank you for getting in touch, Jasper. Both Amanda and I have done our time working for or in companies which tick that polemic box.
[00:00:49.020] - Amanda
There's a fair few of them out there, whether it's pharma, fast fashion, cement, alcohol, tobacco, gaming, pesticides, you name it. They all stir up opinions, good and bad. I think when you're weighing up a move like this, Jasper, it's never just about the company reputation. You've got to think about values, opportunity, and what you're signing up to represent.
[00:01:13.550] - Imogen
Yeah, it's not a black and white decision, is it?
[00:01:16.580] - Amanda
No.
[00:01:18.200] - Imogen
You know, Amanda, you and I have both made the decision to work with companies with difficult or controversial reputations. What do you think makes someone say yes to working for a company like that?
[00:01:30.790] - Amanda
Well, the company reputation, I think, is only part of the decision. I think other things come into play, like the pay, the opportunity it gives you, the scale of the business and its challenge, personal values. I think some people actively seek out these industries to help them change from the inside. You know, they really believe their work can make a difference. And sometimes it's about what you see on the inside that the outside world doesn't know. At the start of my career, I joined McDonald's Restaurants on their graduate training scheme. It was a great scheme, it probably still is, and I was only going to be there a couple of years, but, you know, with hindsight, it was one of the best decisions I ever made. After 7 years, I moved into communications and never looked back. Is one of those companies people have very black and white opinions about, but I was always very happy to speak on its behalf. I knew the business inside and out, so I knew the quality of the supply chain, the ESG initiatives, training and development culture. I'm not saying McDonald's was perfect, it's not, but it was genuinely trying to be a good corporate citizen on, on many levels.
[00:02:44.720]
So, You know, I felt very comfortable being company spokesman at that time. You know, Imogen, you've also weighed up this decision in the past.
[00:02:55.640] - Imogen
Yeah, I mean, I was 8 years in the tobacco world, and that, I think, is possibly even more difficult a decision than fast food, because at its base, tobacco kills people, kills all of its customers. When I made the decision to move there, I think it was the appeal of the complexity of the issue I'd be communicating about that actually made that decision for me. It was along the lines of, you know, if I can do tobacco and I can speak about tobacco, then I can pretty much do anything. And at that stage of my life, the culture also appealed to me. I would be working with smart people. I knew it would be a steep learning curve. I knew I'd be thrown into the deep end, and I'd also get to travel and see the world a little bit. I think my first day, uh, when I first moved to Switzerland. I've been working for the company for maybe a year and a half, 2 years in the London office. They moved me to Switzerland. I think my first day I was told I was giving a training the following week to 20 of the senior leadership, and I had to learn the training and learn how to deliver it in a week.
[00:04:06.940] - Amanda
So that's the deep end.
[00:04:08.000] - Imogen
That, that was the deep end. But you know, sometimes the most sort of exciting opportunities sit within the most difficult environments, and it really taught me how much I loved to train, how much I love to coach people, and that I could do it. But I do think you need to go into these things with your eyes open.
[00:04:28.710] - Amanda
There must have been a lot of crossing your mind at the time. What were the questions you asked yourself?
[00:04:34.390] - Imogen
One of the first things you have to think about is, can you defend your decision to your friends, to your family, to, to people that you're meeting for the first time? But without sounding like you're reading a press release. So, do your company research, find out what employers are saying, go to sites like Glassdoor, etc. Listen to what detractors are saying, and there will be a number. What does the company say about themselves, about their future? And then think about your role and the benefits of working for a more difficult company is about your skills and what skills you'll learn. So, will it stretch you? And ultimately, does the work go against your fundamental, your core values?
[00:05:21.560] - Amanda
Yeah, I think you also need to think about your own personal style. You know, you're more of an advocate, you're a fixer, a challenger. Do you thrive in structure, or are you at your best when it's completely chaotic? 'Cause I think some of these companies are constantly in firefighting mode, and while that's great and it can be exhilarating and fast-paced, I think it can also be exhausting if it's not your natural gear. I think it's important to be honest about what energizes you and what drains you. And the other thing I think is important is the setup, the com setup itself. Do you have a seat at the table? Will you genuinely be influencing decisions, or are you just being handed things to polish and push out? I think that makes a real big difference, because you're either building credibility, or you're putting a gloss on tough messages. Now, you're either going to thrive or burn out, and I think it needs, you know, you need to know which.
[00:06:22.370] - Imogen
Yeah, burnout is a huge, huge risk factor in working for these very high-paced, high-difficulty, challenging companies. So, you really need to be very conscious and very aware of your own limitations when it comes to your own mental health. And I think there are, there are pros and cons about working for any company, really. What did you find were the benefits that you felt when you were working in, in this more controversial industry?
[00:06:51.860] - Amanda
In my experience, you're more likely to be at the heart of the business. I think where there's reputation risk, it usually means comms gets more strategic. I think what I absolutely can say is external stakeholders and the media want to talk to your company. It suits their agendas in so many different ways, and the skill development you get is next level: stakeholder management, navigating politics, message development. I don't think I would have won the awards I did if I hadn't been part of or advising controversial companies. What did you find was the plus?
[00:07:32.040] - Imogen
I think you're absolutely right when it comes to exposure to senior leadership. I mean, I, as I said, I found it my first week in when I was suddenly training senior leaders on narrative and messaging and how to speak about the company. It's much faster than in other sectors I've worked in, where sometimes comms is, kind of kept in the background a little bit. Because budgets tend to be bigger, and that's a sort of sweeping, sweeping generalization, but they tend to be bigger. And therefore, I always found that the amount of development opportunities I was given and the progression that I was offered was also very quick and very varied. I was given the opportunity to travel the world, to speak to colleagues everywhere from Kazakhstan to Florida, bizarrely, you are offered opportunities that maybe other companies don't have the budget to give you. On the comms side of things, you learn a little bit more about balancing truth and company narrative and the line that there is between the two, because the company will always want you to say things which sound the best, but you also have to have that moral hat on as a communicator.
[00:08:59.470] - Amanda
Yeah, absolutely.
[00:09:00.020] - Imogen
To make sure you're also telling the truth as it is. You certainly get a thick skin working in these kind of companies. And as I'm sure anyone who's worked with us will attest, you get a very strong voice and an ability to question things, which I think is essential to any communicator.
[00:09:20.130] - Amanda
You left your job after 8 years. Did you worry at the time that it was the wrong decision, that you wouldn't, you know, be able to get another job having worked for a controversial company?
[00:09:31.220] - Imogen
I did. My friends did. My parents certainly did. Um, I think that's one of the biggest worries, isn't it? If you, you feel like you've been tarred with a certain type of brush having worked for one of these industries. And I don't think it needs to be the case because some of the skills that you have learned are so easily used in other contexts. So, I think you can position your experience like that. So, it's about navigating reputational complexity, shaping communications in high-risk, high-visibility. An emphasis on your maturity, your adaptability, the clarity you need when you're writing and giving counsel for these kinds of companies. That tough role brings and grows your confidence as a communicator, and I think those skills are easily transferable anywhere else.
[00:10:28.420] - Amanda
Yeah, and I think the other thing is be confident about your impact. Be ready to show your receipts, if you like. If you're tracking metrics, you're logging budgets that you've managed, or you're building up a bank of case studies that show the role you played and what the results are, that's only gonna be, you know, proof to your experience in the wider context. You know, it's not just about saying you worked under pressure or dealt with ambiguity, you've got to prove it. And I think we talk about this all the time with storytelling, Gonna paint a picture of what you handled and how you moved the needle. That kind of real-world tested experience is incredibly valuable currency in anybody's communications career.
[00:11:15.490] - Imogen
Absolutely. And I, you know, the wonderful thing about working in these companies with their big budgets is that hopefully you as a communicator get those big budgets. So it really can come across, you know, it's quite impressive to see the kind of budgets and the number of people that you handle within this role. And that's great experience for whatever the next step is. I think, and I'm sure you've experienced this, there comes a time that working in one of these companies just starts to feel a little bit uncomfortable. So, how do you know when to walk away? Because there is a pressure there, those golden handcuffs of a great salary and great travel and great perks, How do you know when to go?
[00:12:02.620] - Amanda
You've gotta be honest with yourself. Sometimes your values shift, or the companies shift, and there's a disconnect. I'm a firm believer in believing your gut instinct. You know, do you still believe what you're saying? Are you avoiding certain conversations? And it's not about ethics on paper, it's about the day-to-day realities of the role. You know, I was someone who always does long tenures, I stick things out, I build relationships, I get deep into the business. But there was one role that was the exception, and honestly, the red flags were there before I even started, quite frankly. You know, the way the hiring manager spoke about the rest of the team, the expectation I'd start delivering before I'd even joined, the siloed way of working, I had a huge disconnect with head office. You know, it was all a signal, and I ignored it, because the role looked exciting on paper. I told myself I could make it work and I could make a difference, but it just didn't align with how I wanted to work or lead. And I'm picking up on the comment you made earlier about can you justify it to friends and family.
[00:13:11.040]
And I look back now, it was a bit hollow. So, you know, my point I'm making is don't be a martyr. Sometimes, you know, the most powerful move is choosing to walk away, doesn't mean you failed. It just means you've listened to yourself and made a decision based on your values and not your ego.
[00:13:30.970] - Imogen
And it was exactly the same with me. When I came to, like, the last year or so of my in-house job, I wasn't progressing the way in which I wanted. I wasn't learning things, anything new, and I had started to question and not get answers that I believed. And I knew at that point, that when I was starting to have these doubts, then it was time to make a change.
[00:13:53.340] - Amanda
Absolutely.
[00:13:54.430] - Imogen
Not only because of my own values, but how can I do my job properly if I don't believe what I'm saying? I think it's important to find a line that you won't cross. So what are you willing to defend? Where are your non-negotiables? And, you know, it's important to talk to your friends, talk to your peers, your friends, your family, It's not a decision that you need to make on your own.
[00:14:18.090] - Amanda
Yeah, and I think when I made that career error, I didn't widely talk about it, I have to be honest. I think if you're thinking of making the leap, or you're already deep in the trenches, working in a complex industry can make you sharper, more resilient, uh, communicator. But I think it only really works if you stay grounded in your values. And you're clear about what you're willing to stand behind. Their reputations, they're complicated, but, you know, with it comes opportunity. So what matters most is going with your eyes wide open and with a voice that you're confident of using.
[00:14:57.190] - Imogen
There is no one right choice. You just need to make sure that it's the right choice for you right now. And that is it. That flew by, Amanda, that episode of Dear Comms. But if you have a question you'd you'd like us to tackle, uh, do get in touch. In the meantime, please share and like this episode. It does remind us that there might be someone out there listening to us. But until next time, goodbye.
[00:15:26.320] - Amanda
See you.
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