Transcript
[00:00:06.960] - Imogen
Hello and welcome to Dear Comms, the coffee break podcast where we tackle your biggest corporate comms challenges.
[00:00:13.460] - Amanda
I'm Imogen, and I'm Amanda. We're here to give you practical, no-nonsense advice so you can focus on the things that will really drive influence, engagement, and impact.
[00:00:24.940] - Imogen
Today we have a guest with us on the podcast, Amanda. We are joined by journalist, author, and decision coach, uh, Nell Wolfhard. Welcome, Nell.
[00:00:36.180] - Nell
Thanks, so excited to be here.
[00:00:38.520] - Imogen
So Nell's work has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, many, many more. Her debut book was named one of the best non-fiction books of the year by the Washington Post. She's also had two audio projects commissioned by Audible. And as if this wasn't enough to keep her busy and keep her going, since 2013, Nell's been coaching people as a decision coach. Helping people make big and small, I guess, decisions in one single session. Now, that's quite a CV. How did you make the decision, I guess, to become a decision coach?
[00:01:20.120] - Nell
That's a good question because it's not a very common job. I've just always been that person that friends and family come to for extremely, as you guys say, straightforward, no-nonsense advice. And eventually my friends were like, stop telling us what to do. Maybe other people could benefit from this. And I thought maybe they can. And it turns out that actually people really struggle with decision-making and having a third party can help.
[00:01:44.630] - Imogen
Why is it that there are some decisions that are so difficult to make? How do you think we should approach our decision-making?
[00:01:52.980] - Nell
I think people get stuck on decision-making so much because, I mean, lots of reasons. They ask too many people's opinions. They Google too many articles. They spend way too long deciding. But I think the biggest factor is fear of regret. The decision-making business is really just the regret minimization business, and people are so paralyzed by the fear of feeling uncomfortable, feeling sadness, feeling regret after a decision that they will keep deciding for way, way too long.
[00:02:25.630] - Amanda
I think when we in communications, particularly when we're managing projects, we love a framework, we love a model to support us. RACI, problem, solution, results, you know, SMART objectives. Are there any frameworks or models we can use to make decisions, particularly when we're under pressure?
[00:02:47.510] - Nell
Sure, I always have my clients do two exercises before they get in a session with me. And honestly, anybody could do these and use them to help them to make decisions. They do not have to book a session with me. First one is very simple. Just make a list of your values. And I don't mean like moral or religious or honestly even corporate values. I just mean the things that, you know, make you happy and feel good on a day-to-day basis. You know, so that could be recognition for your work, financial security, uh, time spent walking your dog, uh, less time in front of the computer, whatever, all these sorts of things. And then I ask everybody to imagine their future self. I will say upfront that people hate doing this exercise. They really struggle with it. And I mean, I also struggle with it. It's very hard for humans to imagine what they want in the future. But I ask everyone to sketch out their ideal life, the life they would really like to have 1 year from now, 5 years from now, and 10 years from now. And you can use those 2 exercises.
[00:03:50.000]
You can almost use them as checklists when you're looking at different options. To see which one is more aligned. And you can use those both as sort of a shortcut for making your personal and some of your business decisions.
[00:04:00.940] - Imogen
It's almost like setting out, setting out a vision statement where you're working towards and then using that as a guide to say, will this decision, if I do X, is that going to get me closer to that vision that I'm looking for?
[00:04:14.360] - Nell
100%. It's a combination of mission and vision statements, but for individuals, exactly like that.
[00:04:19.380] - Imogen
I'm also a big fan, I don't know if you'll approve of this, but I'm a big fan of pros and cons lists. I find them, they're so simple, they're so simple, but for me, they really, really work. Like, what is the benefit of doing it this way and where are the drawbacks of doing it this way?
[00:04:35.150] - Nell
I also like a pros and cons list, and I think it can be really helpful just writing things down, honestly, which is why I make people do this future exercise and write it down because it does force you to think about things a little bit differently. So I think a pros and cons list can be really useful. But not if you take too long to make a decision. I have found that when people overthink something and take too long to make a choice, they end up loading that pros and cons list with lots of like tiny things that don't even matter 'cause they just keep occurring to them. Like if they're trying to decide to relocate somewhere, like, oh, there's a temperature difference of 2 degrees in the winter, I'll put that on there. Or like, there's a nice tree on my block here, I'll put that on there. Like things that absolutely don't matter. So if you can keep the pros and cons list most of the things that are relevant to your values and to your future life, great. But I would say keep it short and snappy. That would be my advice.
[00:05:29.830] - Imogen
Way back when, when we first started this podcast, and I think it was back in season 1, we were looking at how communications professionals could focus their time on really making a difference. And we gave them kind of a matrix to look at, looking at the impact of their work and the value they bring. I think that kind of matrix might also work well with decisions in the fact that you can look at what the impact of that decision is and the effort that it will take in order to complete that task. So, there will be quick wins, which are high impact, low effort, and those are the kind of very easy decisions to make, I guess. You'll then have those major projects, those ones which are high impact, but will take a whole load of effort to fulfill. And that really requires more resource and more planning and time. And then on the other side of the spectrum, you've got those thankless tasks, which we always end up doing in comms, I think, which are low impact and high effort. And that should be an easy indicator that you should make a decision to say no.
[00:06:42.330]
And then everything else is kind of in that muddy in-between where you can do it if there's time and you have capacity, but it's really not going to move the needle. And get you closer towards that vision that we were talking about.
[00:06:55.820] - Amanda
I think saying no is difficult. We know it's difficult, particularly as communicators, we tend to be problem solvers. So I think we've got an episode on saying no, Imogen, early on in the season. Another model that I helped clients make commercial decisions with is a 5-question filter called Leeds. The L stands for, is what you propose doing legal? The E is ethical. The A is morally acceptable, and that's in the court of public opinion. D is defensible to the stakeholders that matter. And S, does it make business sense? I think obviously L and E is a given, but there are many areas of healthy gray when it comes to talking about the rest. I think especially if there are different opinions, and this is a high-pressure situation, but I've used that quite effectively.
[00:07:51.260] - Imogen
I think one of the challenges we face, and I'm sure, Nel, that you've experienced this with some of your clients, is that there are so many decisions that are made via groupthink, you know, designed by committee, or leadership teams, or people overthinking a decision. And that means that things slow down. Because we're so busy analyzing that we become paralyzed in our inability to say yes or no to something. So how do we make decisions quicker, especially if we're working with difficult people and other people?
[00:08:27.350] - Nell
Yeah, overthinking is like my dragon. It is a thing I am always looking to kill because I just find that it just bogs down people's lives. It slows them down so much. So much, like it genuinely makes the quality of your life worse. When it comes to making group decisions, I would first ask, does this decision have to be made by a group? Because I have found that it is, can be an elaborate form of procrastination to take a decision to a group. Like if one person is not confident in their decision-making abilities, they are sort of diffusing responsibility and like taking the load off their shoulders by sharing it with the group. But in a lot of cases, Like it's just postponing doing the thing that actually needs to get done, which I understand, but it's not a great idea.
[00:09:10.010] - Imogen
It's a bit like when people CC their boss into every communication that they do, right? 'Cause it's about getting rid of that pressure. It's not just me, but there's someone else here in it with me.
[00:09:21.780] - Nell
100%. And actually, I think that's why I have a job as a decision coach is that it helps to share the responsibility of making a decision. So someone calls me and I help them make the decision.
[00:09:29.980] - Amanda
I think sometimes it can also, be about getting buy-in and support. You're not confident about the decision and whether it's the right decision. So bringing in others, uh, so what makes it a collective decision-making and you're a little bit of abdication of responsibility, I think.
[00:09:50.320] - Nell
Sure. And I also think there's a lot of decisions where it makes sense to have a group. Like, I coach a lot of couples, I coach, you know, co-founders, people who have to make decisions as a team, in which case some advice I would give is to, A, set a deadline or even a timer for making the decision to not let the decision-making take over your lives. Um, when that goes everything from like, should we launch this new project in March to should we have a baby? You know, like set a deadline, stick to the deadline. And I'm also a big fan, um, if like, if there is an actual expert in the group or available to you, you can delegate the decision to them. They're like, there's no point in trying to make a decision that one person can make better than everybody else, just for the sake of making it a group. So, if you can find someone who really is like the subject matter expert, let them take responsibility for the decision.
[00:10:39.550] - Imogen
And you've got to trust them that they know what they're talking about and that they can make that decision. I think that's—
[00:10:44.520] - Nell
Well, that's ideal, yes.
[00:10:45.980] - Imogen
I've been reading up a lot when we were researching for this episode, I was reading up a lot about Jeff Bezos, because I think he really was a leader who had the ability to make decisions, good and bad, but he could make a decision. He came up with this idea, which he called disagree and commit. So, if you are trying to make a decision and you are getting no consensus or people are arguing with you, you just sort of step back and say, "Look, I know you disagree with this decision." but will you come along with me on the journey? Will you commit to getting it done? So putting that emphasis on actually getting something done, as opposed to endlessly discussing whether the decision is a good one. And use it in the second way, if you have a problem with that decision, or you're not sure that this is the right way to go, you think people are missing the point, then you have to say to yourself, you know, is it worth me disagreeing? Is it worth me continuing to beat the door down? Is it a question of, you know, winning the battle or the war?
[00:11:58.630]
And then you've got to just disagree, but commit to actually getting something done. And I think that idea of agreeing to disagree, I guess, is a very powerful one because then you're not stuck in stasis, you're not at a standstill, things actually moving forward?
[00:12:17.020] - Amanda
Yeah, I think it stops things stalling, doesn't it? Because you can go around in circles for a long time. The other thing I think is when the decision is made, you need to make sure that the whole team understands and supports it, or at least, yeah, agrees to do it anyway. I think quite often the why behind that decision is key. I think once people understand the thought process, I think it's much easier to connect with and empathize with that decision.
[00:12:51.450] - Imogen
Absolutely. You may not agree with that sort of the end vision, but if you understand the purpose behind that decision and why that thought process went forward the way it did, it's much easier to go, yeah, okay, I can see where they're coming from. Let's talk about decisions backfiring, because they do. We all know they do. Um, try as we might, we can't make 100% perfect decisions the whole time. You know, we potentially date the wrong people, we stay in jobs that we shouldn't stay in, we order the wrong wine at a restaurant, whatever it is. How, how do you deal with the fallout of making a bad decision?
[00:13:32.910] - Nell
I love this, and I actually had a client not too long ago who said to me that she tells herself before every decision, well, I'm I'm not gonna be mad at myself no matter what happens. Which I thought that was great advice because, you know, none of us can predict the future. We do not have a crystal ball and sometimes we're gonna make decisions and we're not happy with the outcome, but all we can do is make sure that we're making the best decision we can possibly make at the time with the information we had at the time. And I think the key to avoiding that sort of, um, regret, you know, to look back and think, oh, I made a bad decision. Is to remember that decision and outcome are two separate things. We can make a decision with the information we have. We'll make our best guess as to what we're going to do. But the outcome of that decision, like say we take a job and it turns out the boss is a real micromanager. Like there was no way to know that in advance. That is an outcome that we could not control.
[00:14:26.590]
And for most decisions, the outcome is more or less beyond our control. So to beat ourselves up for making a bad decision makes Makes no sense. So, if you can remember in your brain to separate the decision from the outcome, then I think you feel less second-guessing, less regret, less self-recrimination, and that can help you to move forward faster. And then just pivot. Most decisions are reversible.
[00:14:49.500] - Imogen
It's something that you hear in coaching the whole time now. It's about what do you have control over? You don't have control over what other people do, what other people think, how people behave, but you do have control over how you react to that, or the way in which you think and behave. And I guess it's a little bit the same with this divorcing decision from outcome. You have your control over the decision you made, but you have no control over the outcome. So why dwell on that?
[00:15:17.000] - Nell
Exactly. And all you can do is learn from the experience and move forward. Again, when we're talking about overthinking decisions, also we should try to avoid overthinking outcomes.
[00:15:28.180] - Amanda
So talking about outcomes, have you ever made a good decision which led to a result that you didn't expect or was different to what you were hoping? I guess, you know, what did you learn?
[00:15:40.270] - Nell
I make decisions every day that don't give me the outcomes I'm hoping for. I send pitches, I develop ideas, I ask people to collaborate, I suggest articles, and yeah, plenty of time I don't even get a response, or somebody says no, or somebody wants to take it in a different direction. For me, the most important thing, and the, the, the way I would give credit to any success I have had in my career so far is not from, again, the outcome of those actions. It's from making the decision incredibly quickly and taking action immediately. So I send out pitches for things all the time for projects and ideas. Most of the time people aren't interested. Some of the time they are. But if I had not taken that quick action, made that fast decision and moved forward with it, I would be sitting here with absolutely nothing. In fact, I wouldn't be on this podcast right now.
[00:16:30.800] - Imogen
So if you were to leave your— leave our listeners with one piece of advice on decision-making, would that be it? Would it be that doing something trumps doing nothing?
[00:16:42.600] - Nell
That and about 3,000 other pieces of decision-making advice I've picked up over the years. But I would also say that more people regret making— taking too long to make decisions in their lives than they regret making a too hasty decision once in a while. And the amount of time and energy and brain space that you will get back from speeding up your decision-making is just going to make your life so much better. And I can tell you that the quality of your decisions is not correlated to the amount of time you spend making them. So I would say if you can cut your decision-making time, let's say in half for every decision that you make, your, the quality of your decisions will be just as good and you will have all that extra time and energy to do whatever you want with.
[00:17:27.350] - Amanda
And that's great advice because, you know, when we're working with communications professionals, they don't have a lot of time, and getting time back is really important. And Imogen and I talk about this a lot, but sometimes, you know, clarity and confidence can beat perfection. Sometimes it's just not going to be 100%.
[00:17:46.270] - Nell
I mean, clarity and confidence over perfection every single time, Amanda, is what I would say. Just speed is everything.
[00:17:53.470] - Imogen
Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough, right?
[00:17:56.210] - Nell
Exactly.
[00:17:57.080] - Imogen
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Nell. If anyone listening has a decision that they need help on, how can they get in touch with you and how can you help them?
[00:18:08.170] - Nell
You can find me at decisioncoach.com, where you can sign up for my biweekly newsletter. I'm also on LinkedIn, and you can find The Decision Coach podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:18:18.770] - Amanda
So we'll also drop things in the show notes. All the links will be there for you. And if you've got a topic you want us to explore in a future episode, ping it our way. And why not make the simple decision now to like, comment, and share this episode? So until the next time, goodbye. Bye.
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