Transcript
[00:00:06.590] - Imogen
Hello and welcome to Dear Comms, the coffee break podcast where we tackle your biggest corporate comms challenges. I'm Imogen.
[00:00:14.300] - Amanda
And I'm Amanda. We're here to give you practical, no-nonsense advice so you can focus on the things that will really drive influence, engagement, and impact.
[00:00:24.000] - Imogen
Today we are joined by Jocelyn Penque Saunders, someone who's made I would say a pretty bold career shift from leading comms in the tech sector to coaching people in one of the most personal areas of life, dating. Jocelyn is now the founder of Dating Classroom, and through her work, she helps clients build confidence, understand their patterns, and navigate— and I think we all need help with this— navigate modern relationships with clarity. We'll put a whole load of information about her signature Dating Breakthrough program in the show notes. But, um, Jocelyn, welcome to, to Dear Comms.
[00:01:02.360] - Jocelyn
Well, thank you, Imogen. Thank you, Amanda. Um, I'm so excited to be here, and admittedly, this is my first podcast as the founder of Dating Classroom, so I'm very thrilled. Thank you.
[00:01:15.360] - Imogen
Excellent. Well, let's start at the beginning then. What made you decide to walk away from a very successful career in corporate communications?
[00:01:25.030] - Jocelyn
So around 10 years ago, I was actually fired from a corporate job. And it was the first time I could actually sit down and reflect and say, oh my gosh, you know, why do I not have my husband? Why am I not married with 4 kids? And my hair was falling out. I'd lost loads of weight. I had rashes above my eyes. And I actually said, well, what if I used my business acumen and I applied it to my personal life. And I actually put together a PowerPoint presentation on how to find a man, and I presented it to all my girlfriends in a pub. And that really kind of helped me change the direction and move forward and end up finding love. Um, and I actually ended up using that same PowerPoint presentation 5 years later during lockdown, I was— I felt almost like compelled to share it with my friends who were dating over Zoom. They were dating people in parks, and I said, look, I've got something that can really help navigate modern dating right now for you. So it's something that I really believe in, and in fact, probably 40% of my conversations with my friends, it's about finding true love.
[00:02:39.980]
So that helped me decide.
[00:02:42.110] - Amanda
That means that there was always something on the shelf all the time where you were in high-pressure corporate job. It was there sitting like a little imp on your shoulder. So it sounds as if it was a kind of gradual shift, but what was the moment when you really knew to make that leap?
[00:03:01.540] - Jocelyn
I was shopping in Planet Organic in Notting Hill, and all of a sudden I had this quiet voice, and it was almost like the Holy Spirit came over me, and just this quiet voice said, "You should be a dating coach." And I, I started crying. It was, it was crazy. Like it came out of nowhere and I was so shocked. But that— yeah, yeah. I mean, I felt I was, I was, I had the goosebumps. I was shaking. It was, it was an epiphany, if you put it that way. So that was the moment that I said, wait, there could be something here. How can I make this happen?
[00:03:38.310] - Imogen
That's super interesting because I think It's wonderful that you had that kind of just moment of realization. I think a lot of leaders in communications, a lot of people who are working within corporate comms, don't have that moment of realization because they're always at the back of their head worried the whole time, what is next for me? I've been working in comms my whole career. I can't do anything else but communications. They don't always see, I guess, the skills that we have as communicators as being transferable to something else. What skills did you learn during your career within communications, and how have they transferred over to your new, your new role?
[00:04:24.140] - Jocelyn
Well, Imogen, I would say to all these people, the wonderful thing about being in communications is I truly believe it can apply to any job or anything that you end up doing, right? And In this role as a dating coach, what I've really found is that what they always say, what we always talk about communication leaders, is having that curious mindset. So for example, we're thinking about what's the real story here? How do we make this compelling for our audience? And it's the same thing with clients. You know, they might come to me and say, oh, this is my problem. But by asking those questions, Why is this happening? What is happening? And not taking anything at face value, that curiosity and that interest for a story and the truth is something that's really, really helped me. And I think secondly, communications people, we are curious and we love learning. We have to learn. We have to know what's going on in different industries. We have to be well-read. We have to know what's going on in the news. Same thing in this profession. I need to know what's going on in the dating world, what's being said out there, how modern dating has evolved, and thinking about from my client's shoes, knowing my audience.
[00:05:43.740]
They might be doctors, they might be lawyers, they might come, you know, they might be architects. So the more you learn about different industries and what's happening, the more relatable you are. In this job, in this role. And then thirdly, I would say writing. So ultimately, you're getting out there as an entrepreneur, you're telling the world about what you're doing. But with writing, I think what's super helpful for anyone, despite what's happening with ChatGPT and different tools that we use, writing really helps us to be clear and think and really be authentic in our voice. And clients and people out there in the world, they know when you're being authentic and they know when you're not. And to hire someone like myself, they have to believe and trust in me. So this tool has been really helpful.
[00:06:33.440] - Imogen
I think that element of curiosity is a really interesting one because we know as communicators, when we're sitting in-house, we're sitting in agency, someone will come to us and say, this is the problem and we want you to do I don't know, always a poster or a PowerPoint presentation or a video. And our role as communicators is to challenge and to question and to understand the problem behind the problem, to understand the objective. What do they want to achieve? Who are they talking to? And I can see how those skills could actually be applicable to a wide range of roles and jobs, not just communications ones.
[00:07:12.280] - Amanda
The other thing that occurs to me is when we're really in the thick of our career, I know I did, I defined myself in a certain way. So, you know, I was a comms leader, I was running an agency, that's what I did. And probably to the detriment of my personal life, to be honest with you. How do you go about redefining yourself? And how do you perhaps get over the fear of failing? Because, you know, it's a huge leap.
[00:07:50.190] - Jocelyn
It goes into identity. And as you rightly pointed out, for 25 years I was heading up external comms. I was working around the world, big tech companies. And that was who I was. But I do what I tell my clients to do. So they may not be where they want to be in their love lives, but I'm like, where do you want to be? So for example, I want to help hundreds, if not thousands, of people find true love. And I need to imagine that I am that dating coach that's already done that. So I need to be that dating coach starting now. And also, I still am a communications professional. You know, I still have that experience. So I'm not changing. I'm not just, I'm not just a dating coach. I'm a I'm a dating coach who has 25 years of corporate comms experience. And I think looking at it that way has really helped me. And secondly, going back to your question about failure, again, it's living and breathing what I say to my clients. They say to me, I might be rejected, I might be disappointed. And I say, yeah, I mean, that's most of dating is nos, right?
[00:09:01.310]
Until you get the final yes. Same for me. And people have phrased it different ways, but I, I like the one that says failure is just information.
[00:09:11.410] - Imogen
Yeah.
[00:09:11.650] - Jocelyn
So how do I take that information and do it differently and use the scientific theory? So I, I actually, as a coach, the good thing about the coaching world, we're really good at reframing failure.
[00:09:25.870] - Amanda
I like that.
[00:09:27.120] - Imogen
Before you decided to, to follow your passion, before you had your epiphany in the supermarket in Notting Hill, did you explore other that were the more, I guess, traditional path, next step path for someone of your level within communications? I'm thinking Chief of Staff roles are very popular, potentially going over into operations and working with sales teams and getting their communication skills up. Is there anything else you had a look at beforehand?
[00:09:57.230] - Jocelyn
I definitely thought about it. So, for example, when I would meet a salesperson who was really good at their job, And I would sometimes think to myself, I could actually sell that better than you. I think when you meet interesting people, it's, there's almost part of you that says, wow, could I do that? You know, even the, even the finance team, because I thought, I, I'm, I don't think I'm very good at finance, but maybe I could study it and help other people become better. So, so I certainly thought about it, but in terms of what, why I decided to do this, it was just so powerful. And I, you know, going back to that epiphany, It just feels right for now.
[00:10:36.430] - Imogen
Yeah.
[00:10:37.020] - Amanda
So you had epiphany, which is brilliant, but there are people out there who are wondering if they're ready for something different. How do you know when it's time to change? What advice would you give them if they're in that wondering stage? What should they explore?
[00:10:54.190] - Jocelyn
The world is unpredictable, so all of us should always be thinking about our future and not become complacent. And I certainly have been complacent. So I think the wonderful thing about that is ask yourself positive questions. So what I mean by that, what would be my dream life? Just ask yourself, what would be my dream life? And just start brainstorming. You don't have to tell anyone, you know, write down 25 things. You know, for example, it could be as crazy. I'd love to go to the moon. You know, I'd love to be a salsa instructor, whatever. Just dream big. And then choose one or two that actually sits with you, that really makes you think, wow, I would absolutely love to do this. And then go from there and work backwards. That's what I would recommend.
[00:11:50.780] - Imogen
I think it has to do with your own personal values and what gives you energy and joy in what you do. When I was coming out of my in-house career, I did pretty much that whole exercise. You know, what gives me joy? What do I thrive in? Where do my values sit? And it really came down to, you know, teaching other people, learning things myself, shaping messages. Those are the things that really sort of got me going. But I think it all, it has to come back to you and what, where your energy comes from. Because if you're looking for a change, you're looking for positive change, not negative change. And so you don't want to move into a role which is going to suck all the life out of you.
[00:12:37.670] - Amanda
It can be a challenge, I think, to make, to make a leap. I think when I was at my most senior, out of the 5 years I was in that role, there was probably only 2 And it was the first 2 that I really enjoyed it. And then for 3 years, I think it was a bit of a battle, if I'm honest. But at the time, I didn't realize that I was that unhappy and it was such a battle. It's only when I had moved on and I reflected on that, I could see it. And sometimes I think when your nose is in the day-to-day, it's hard, isn't it, to put your head above water, really.
[00:13:16.490] - Jocelyn
Yeah, and I think that's a really good point, Amanda, that hard— no matter what you do, even if you absolutely love it, starting a new career or a new vocation, it's going to be hard, right? But when you absolutely love what you're doing and you have that desire, the hard becomes a lot easier because of that. Versus what you said, Amanda, if you're in the grind, the day-to-day, and you're just going through the motions, that's hard, but you don't have that necessarily, that desire that's supporting you. Yeah.
[00:13:51.420] - Imogen
And if, if anyone listening is interested in what it feels like, or when you might know that it's the right time to make a move, we actually did an episode on it, um, a couple of, a couple of weeks ago, and looked specifically at how do you know when to make that next move. So that might be a good, uh, listen for you. What do you think, Jocelyn, surprised you the most about this new chapter of career that you now have?
[00:14:18.630] - Jocelyn
It's one thing reading how hard it is and being an entrepreneur, and 98% of entrepreneurs fail. But until you're living and breathing it, I don't think you get it. And so, and you guys can relate.
[00:14:32.840] - Amanda
Yeah. Yeah, we can.
[00:14:36.120] - Jocelyn
I notice in my body, I have, I sometimes wake up and I, I don't know if the word terror is appropriate considering everything going on, but there's certainly terror, you know, will I be able to in a few months' time, will I be able to pay rent? Will I be able to afford bills? That definitely comes up. But on the flip side, I wake up as well every day, even if I have that fear. And I go back to, oh my gosh, I am so lucky. I get to do this. Like where we are today, I get to coach people in Australia, Montreal, Texas, here. Like I get to help people find love. Like how cool is that? So that the joy that I have is equally as more surprising than I thought. I would say as much as the fear that I have.
[00:15:26.330] - Amanda
Do you feel those successes? You gotta— you're rooting for them.
[00:15:33.000] - Jocelyn
Yes. And it's so funny you say that, Amanda, because in coach training we obviously give—
[00:15:38.920] - Imogen
we're—
[00:15:39.260] - Jocelyn
we, we have to give our clients space and we are not supposed to be tied to the results. Right. But I'm sorry, I am so tied to the results. I want them to find love. That's why they hire me. So, yes. But yeah, no, I really My job is to show up and to have that 90% of believing in them, right? I just say to them, look, you just need to find that 10%, get that 10% and we're good. And it's the best feeling. Yeah.
[00:16:07.720] - Imogen
There's also something to be said about having control as well. When you make a move out of corporate or make a move out of a job and move to working on something that's a passion project or working on something for yourself, there's an element of control. You know, you have the fear, you have the joy, but you also get to be in control of your own destiny. If you are scared you're not making enough money, then you have to go out and make some more money. If you don't want to work on a Friday afternoon, then you don't have to work on a Friday afternoon, but you get to call the shots. And I think that's— for me, that was liberating.
[00:16:44.130] - Jocelyn
Yeah, I, and I have to admit, I am the eldest of 5 kids. And so I always growing up paved the way in my family. I was the first to do things. So I think that bit comes natural to me. I like having autonomy, but as you rightly pointed out, you know, there's a lot of external circumstances going on, the economy, laws changing, you know, people losing jobs, but going back to that control, I can control how I show up and what I do, but also I can't control a lot of other things and I just need to keep going.
[00:17:17.150] - Imogen
And I think that's sound advice for anyone listening to this podcast. You know, you have to— you can control how you react to things, but you have to let go and not be— you can't control everything else around you. Jocelyn, thank you. Thank you for such an inspiring conversation, actually. For anyone listening who is listening, considering, thinking about that next step, not sure where it is, Hopefully this has just given you a little bit of courage to go out there and just explore the possibilities of what might be next for you.
[00:17:51.810] - Amanda
Absolutely. Whether it's life after comms or life alongside it, quite frankly, I think our skills go further than we think. And who knows where that next chapter might be waiting. It's probably gonna be in a completely different place.
[00:18:06.430] - Imogen
Indeed. Don't forget to check out the show notes for more information on Jocelyn's Dating Breakthrough program. If you are out there, too busy working and not finding the love that you want in your life, then maybe give her a call and see if she can help you. But if you've got a question or a challenge more on the comms side, uh, for Amanda and I, then do get in touch and leave us a message.
[00:18:29.770] - Amanda
Yeah, don't, don't contact us about dating. We'd be out of our depth. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you like the episode share it with somebody else who might need to hear it. So think about all your female and male friends. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you the next time on Dear Comms.
[00:18:50.480] - Imogen
Bye!
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